AUS Breeding reg changes under the radar?

[triplev123]

Noted yesterday that HRA has changed a number of Breeding regulations including this one.

Definition of "Breeder"

(a) In the case of a foal which is the result of an embryo transfer, the registered owner or lessee of the donor mare at the time the embryo is flushed from such donor mare and impregnated into a recipient mare

(b) In all other cases, the registered owner or lessee of the dam at the time of the last date of service. (HRA approved 18/10/2010)

This has MAJOR implications as far as Breeders Bonus payments are concerned because effectively, unless those Breeders Bonus Payments are re-named...perhaps to Nominator Bonus Payments or some such thing, then someone who gets a mare in foal and then sells her still gets to take home a breeder's bonus for the resultant foal if it should win the applicable race/s...this despite having had ZERO financial input in said foal being raised. I think that stinks.
Further to this, I make it a point of keeping my ear very close to the ground and yet I have heard absolutely NOTHING about any proposed change to the definition of BREEDER here in Australia.
One wonders as to the reasons why this proposal was not more widely circulated that it apparently was.

[bustoharland]

this will conflict with the breeders crown, as they are nominator bonuses not breeder

[flashingred]

What are the pro and cons to embryo transfer? I was looking into it for next year. I don't like frozen semen, and I have had a few little negative comments about embryo transfer, but not to the extent of frozen semen.

Not enougn foals over the years have really been born via this method to do any sort of reliable statistics.

I know that Sushi Sushi was an embryo transfer.

I know it is hugely popular with the quarter horses.

[triplev123]

G'day Flashing,

My one and only concern with embryo transfer has always been a loss of the intangible, more specifically an alteration/change the way in which a foal learns to relate to the world around it courtesy of the examples set by its recipent dam.

If you have an aggressive, dominant donor mare and her embryo is transferred into a Mrs. Mouse recipient, one that is way down the mares pecking order, I find it very hard to believe that a foal raised by such a mare would mentally become the same horse it would have been had it come into the world naturally and was raised by its biological mother.

The nurture Vs nature argument raises its head once again.

[flashingred]

Our mares are kept separate, plus the future donor mare was unraced due to injury but had exceptional ability. She's just had her first foal and is proving to be a wonderful mum and she has a nice nature.

Are there any other arguments directly relating to ability? There is still some slight query with frozen semen, I was wondering if there are similar queries with embryo transfer.

[triplev123]

None that I can think of Flashing although no doubt there are some.
I have a 2009 edition of Hoofbeats around here some place that has a whole slab on ET foals in the USA/CAN. To date they've been somewhat ordinary overall especially given the quality of the sires and donor mares involved. I'm a bit duplicitous when it comes to ET's because while I wouldn't buy one if I had a good mare that for whatever reason could not carry a foal to term then I would certainly have a go at breeding one or more with the idea of keeping the fillies as future broodmares.

[flashingred]

Would it be possible at all to scan the article and send it to me? Or would I be able to get it somewhere online?

For us, it is more to keep mares from a certain line racing and breeding simultaneously. Not because they couldn't carry to term... obviously though, you want the line to keep producing good horses, if ET is going to affect that then it kinda defeats the purpose I suppose.

[bustoharland]

in aus, et foals are jadahson, kid coconut and sushi sushi i think

[flashingred]

So there have been only 3? Didn't La Coocaracha have some too? I really haven't looked into this...

[bustoharland]

sorry they were the better ones off the top of my head...

my thinking is, no matter the effect of ET, i'd still rather have a ET out of a well bred horse than a natural bred out off a mare half the quality

[triplev123]

G'day Flashing,

Certainly can. I'll retrieve the mag. from the foal watch cave, scan the article or reproduce it somehow & send it through.
My gut feeling is that potentially it MAY be a negative given certain circumstances but there is by no means any rule of thumb that says it is a no go zone.
The more I look at our mares & foals and the more I see what is to me stark evidence of how often the foals take on the behavioural tendencies of their dams, the more emphasis I would place on trying wherever possible to match those same tendencies in a recipient mare.
My theory on the whole thing is that in many instances to date this crucial aspect has been completely overlooked & I think it is directly responsible for the seemingly erratic results of any efforts thus far.

[flashingred]

Thanks Triple

Whenever you get around to it, my e-mail is [e-mail]

[triplev123]

No worries. Will do.

[triplev123]

Nov 23, 2010 7:51:37 GMT 12 @triplev123 said:

Noted yesterday that HRA has changed a number of Breeding regulations including this one.

Definition of "Breeder"

(a) In the case of a foal which is the result of an embryo transfer, the registered owner or lessee of the donor mare at the time the embryo is flushed from such donor mare and impregnated into a recipient mare

(b) In all other cases, the registered owner or lessee of the dam at the time of the last date of service. (HRA approved 18/10/2010)

This has MAJOR implications as far as Breeders Bonus payments are concerned because effectively, unless those Breeders Bonus Payments are re-named...perhaps to Nominator Bonus Payments or some such thing, then someone who gets a mare in foal and then sells her still gets to take home a breeder's bonus for the resultant foal if it should win the applicable race/s...this despite having had ZERO financial input in said foal being raised. I think that stinks.
Further to this, I make it a point of keeping my ear very close to the ground and yet I have heard absolutely NOTHING about any proposed change to the definition of BREEDER here in Australia.
One wonders as to the reasons why this proposal was not more widely circulated that it apparently was.

FURTHER to this, the implications are MASSIVE for both Futurities and Breeder Bonus' throughout Australia.
For example, HRNSW has spent 3 years+ promoting the NSW Breeders Challenge and Breeding in NSW in general with a great emphasis placed on the Bonus $ that Breeders could earn.
Now, if a Breeder were to buy a mare In Foal, carry that mare through to foaling, nominate the foal in NSW for the associated bonus' including those flowing from the NSW Breeders Challenge, raise and then sell that foal at the Sales, the PREVIOUS owner of that foal's dam would be the one to receive the Bonus $, not the person who went to all the expense of raising & nominating said horse. THAT STINKS! I can smell an inside job on this one and although I have a prime suspect I can't say for certain yet exactly who nurtured it and gave it wings. Stay tuned.

[bustoharland]

i'm going to contact my local breeders association and find out what the go with this is