|
Post by triplev123 on Dec 22, 2010 10:22:02 GMT 12
You're being truculent again Rarebit...and battling a self created Straw Man to boot. That is not what I said. I must go and move some mares and foals about but I'll take this up when I return. Oh the cut & thrust of debate. Don't ya just love it? :-)
|
|
|
Post by bustoharland on Dec 22, 2010 10:24:52 GMT 12
it says shes a 2 yr old? skyvalley..the best son of muscles yankee in southern hemisphere for 3k, definitely worth a shot
|
|
|
Post by triplev123 on Dec 22, 2010 21:39:10 GMT 12
G'day again Rarebit,
An obsession with various bloodlines to the point of the exclusion of all else, spins my head just a bit...well, Ok, it spins my head a lot. I say this because the fact is we can have all the coloured pedigree printouts and screens on a PC highlighting this cross or that cross that we like...but if we don't have the basic form & function in the animal itself, something which Breakthebank highlighted very much on point there when he/she posted (in part) " the fundamental conformation to be a trotter "....then all is for squat.
The fact is that some Pacing bred horses can & do have not only the conformation required to Trot successfully, but they are also born with the inclination to do so. You may or may not be aware that here in Oz a multiple generations Pacing bred sire by the name of Safely Kept produced numerous successful Trotters. Since that string to his bow first became apparent people began sending Trotting bred mares to Safely Kept for the express purpose of breeding Trotters. My own theory as to the reason why he left Trotters was a pretty simple one and it had zip to do with Bloodlines. As a Pacer the fact was he had quite a lot of knee action and likely could have been made into a fair Trotter himself without a whole lot of trouble. That he then left Trottters here required no great imagination on the part of anyone when he was viewed in that context, nor given his gait did it require any great explanation either. Form and Function again, in all of its glory. Before him there was a dual gaited son of Albatross, The Contender, who sired Knight Pistol & then of course on the other side of the coin there's the all trot bred SJ's Photo with 4 of 29 Australian bred winners being Pacers.
As an aside.... Perhaps the funniest and most deliciously ironic thing about all this is that the best Trotter to have ever raced here and subsequently one of the best Trotting sires to ever stand stud in Australia was of course the great Maori's Idol, a son of Ike Frost...he in turn a son of Adios. Further to that, & though much more successfull than that of Lord Of The Gym, the immediate and extended maternal family of Maori's Idol has nevertheless mirrored Lord Of The Gym's by way of similarly being bred to both Trotting & Pacing sires over the last 30 odd years or so, yet almost exclusively staying on the Trot.
Now back to the Feature and in closing... My friend, clearly you were not on the Debating Team whilst attending High School as this classic Straw Man statement from your good self suggests... Quote "I guess all the top farms will start going to Bettors Delight - sorry it's Rock N Roll Heaven this year - with their top trotting mares to get an even faster trotter. I think I'll email Hanover Shoe right now, they've been doing it wrong all along. " End Quote.
Now where, at any point did anyone suggest that... or even anything remotely like that ? I certainly didn't. Ermmmm, let's see. No not Buster either. Nup, not Flashing. Breakthebank is in the clear. Norm the same. Hmmmm. I'll be buggered. You did. I take it there that line of thinking both began & I assume...ends? :-P
|
|
|
Post by bustoharland on Dec 22, 2010 23:41:52 GMT 12
butts had an ok sundon win on debut the other day...nice bit of gear on it to - shadow role ...pacifiers... where does it say on its pedigree page that its mad?
|
|
|
Post by rarebit on Dec 23, 2010 11:22:54 GMT 12
I think you'll find what I was suggesting was that if bloodlines mean nothing, and that you think there is merit in trying to breed trotters to pacing lines hoping to get a faster trotter (and this was done not so long ago) then, dang it, your revolutionary Antipodean theories on the speed potential of potters (pacer/trotters) would be of interest to the Americans. Fact is, the horses in both Europe and America with any pacing bloodlines are getting culled, simply because they cannot keep up with the new standards, which have shifted from the 2.07-2.08 mile rates our trotters do here, to something about 10 seconds quicker in both Europe and America. Hot Tub, the Scandanavian veteran entered in the interdoms, has a top mile rate of 1.54.5. He's a little bit better than all but Sundon's Gift and Global Investment has gone even quicker (1.53.2). Everyone says these are second stringers. As I said our average ones win in around 2.07 and our top ones go about 2.01-2.04. Sundon's Gift is up there (1.54.3), I Can Doosit is a couple of seconds slower. Down Under Muscles, Lord of The Gym and Let Me Thru have yet to break 2 minutes in a race according to your website. I think I see a pattern emerging here. I am really hopeful this influx of Europeans will lift our game, and my prediction is that the horses, with pacing bloodlines will go the way of the Justin Morgans, the Cassius Clays and the Star Pointers - horses who had the inclination to trot, but not quick enough for the modern game.
|
|
|
Post by bustoharland on Dec 23, 2010 11:44:47 GMT 12
you can't compare times on tracks like melton to menangle so how can you compare times from Europe to australia?
when they ran 1.53 were they 3 wide into the first bend working forward? or were they on the pegs or following the speed?
|
|
|
Post by triplev123 on Dec 23, 2010 12:35:18 GMT 12
In that case Rarebit....you sure are a great one for whacking up & then knocking down a Straw Man, of that there's little doubt, because once again that has come from the deep recesses of your grey matter & nowhere else. You can have all the pedigree printouts with pretty colours and all the crosses highlighted on a PC screen you can muster, but NONE of that will ever trump form and function.
You've also managed to pull what my close relatives & myself often refer to as an 'Uncle Ted'.
By way of explanation Uncle Ted was my Mum's Uncle. Every Christmas he'd get into an after lunch debate on a subject, one side or other of which he had taken the previous year. Ted was quite a debater, his only failing being that he couldn't remember which side he had taken up the cause of the previous Christmas. One year would see Ted staunchly of the view that Black was in fact White, the next White was White, there was no question whatsoever. I offer this 'Uncle Ted, based analogy so as to highlight that you've now started pumping for horses that are faster based on the suggestion that currently our Trotters, whilst obviously being able to Trot, are not fast enough for the modern game. I agree with this wholeheartedly...and make the comment that this is EXACTLY what I have been banging on about since the very, very early days of this thread, suggesting that high speed and a slick gait needs to be added to the mix....a point which, up until now, you appear to have repeatedly refuted. Nice work Uncle Ted. :-P
|
|
|
Post by rarebit on Dec 23, 2010 13:29:24 GMT 12
I think you'll find my argument was just a little reductum ad absurdum, while as usual you resort to ad hominem. And Busto, I'm pretty sure Menangle is as good as any track in Europe.
|
|
|
Post by triplev123 on Dec 23, 2010 13:43:42 GMT 12
Latin eh?
Doc Holliday: In vino veritas. [When I drink, I say the truth] Johnny Ringo: Age quod agis. [Do what you do best] Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus apella, non ego. [Drinking is not what I do best] Johnny Ringo: [pats his gun] Eventus stultorum magister. [Fools must learn from experience] Doc Holliday: [smiles] In pace requiescat. [It's your funeral] Doc Holliday: [to Kate] That's Latin, darlin'. Evidently Mr. Ringo's an educated man.
:-P
Go have a nice cup of Eggnog and a Fruit Mince Tart now Rarebit. Merry Christmas. :-)
|
|
|
Post by rarebit on Dec 23, 2010 14:18:50 GMT 12
Same to you Jaime, and to you Busto. All the best for the New Year.
|
|
|
Post by hermione on Dec 23, 2010 18:45:47 GMT 12
Keep it up you guys, am absolutely loving it. As to Uncle Ted, we have an 'Uncle Fester', thankfully has pulled out of celebrations this year ;D
|
|
|
Post by flashingred on Dec 23, 2010 18:57:05 GMT 12
I'm with rarebit on this one, in a rush will post reasons why later. Basically, yes the breed is becoming more refined, the build of trotters to pacers is completely different, as these differences become more defined, one will see less mixed-breds for want of a better term, we are heading towards a stage where those exlusively trotting bred will outperform pacing bred and vica versa. I feel that is one reason why our trotters suck so much - very mixed bred and half of them are pacers that were too slow! lol! Wouldn't see that overseas.... Will elaborate in detail later....
|
|
|
Post by kaxolsson on Jan 2, 2011 10:53:20 GMT 12
Ohh Lord, after reading this tread you start to realize why the trotters are what they are in Australasia....
Only got one question really: Why try to re:invent the wheel?
(Also: Hope everyone have had a magnificent start of the New Year!)
|
|
|
Post by nokomai on Jan 7, 2011 11:31:13 GMT 12
Seen a real nice Love You at Chertsey Trials the other,trotted beautifully to finish just in behind them. Getting all the wraps around here,good trotters. day Head to head siring ability sees Muscles Yankee in front by wide open lengths & effortlessly drawing away. He is twice the price it is true but he is also 10 times the sire. If you want to take a shot at a really great colt then try Muscle Hill. As a Trotter he was as dominating over his contemporaries as Somebeachsomewhere was as a Pacer. I would be gobsmacked if Muscle Hill did not go on to become a successful sire. He had it all.
|
|
|
Post by rarebit on Jan 7, 2011 19:40:31 GMT 12
Nice to hear. He may yet click with the bloodlines we have here, as may some of the other French ones. It may well be a punt worth taking, the Italians and Swedes have not done too badly with French lines.
|
|