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Post by rarebit on Oct 17, 2010 12:59:09 GMT 12
Love You or Muscles Yankee. Would you send a mare to either, and which is the better sire?
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Post by bustoharland on Oct 17, 2010 13:32:48 GMT 12
muscles, just because hes proven here
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Post by rarebit on Oct 17, 2010 13:58:37 GMT 12
Will they last?
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Post by enteebee on Oct 17, 2010 19:48:37 GMT 12
can't afford either
thinking real hard about Sam Bourbon - was favourite for a 460000 Euro race last weekend but galloped under pressure just short of the line after being parked all the way
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Post by mightymo on Oct 17, 2010 21:19:30 GMT 12
Love You or Muscles Yankee. Would you send a mare to either, and which is the better sire? Muscles is proven, but is also twice the price. You would need to have a very good mare to justify spending his service fee
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Post by triplev123 on Oct 19, 2010 16:27:18 GMT 12
Head to head siring ability sees Muscles Yankee in front by wide open lengths & effortlessly drawing away. He is twice the price it is true but he is also 10 times the sire. If you want to take a shot at a really great colt then try Muscle Hill. As a Trotter he was as dominating over his contemporaries as Somebeachsomewhere was as a Pacer. I would be gobsmacked if Muscle Hill did not go on to become a successful sire. He had it all.
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Post by rarebit on Oct 21, 2010 11:44:33 GMT 12
Head to head. Look here my friend, where they are actually on the track and running against each other. I think you'll find the reverse is true. go to trot.it/Then go to the stastiche, stalloni page. That is the sires' earnings table for Italy where they have had a couple of hundred Muscles Yankees running, since 2002 from memory. Love You is ahead of Muscles Yankee on any stat you want. And it's not over a handful of overmatched horses either. It's in a very similar environment to here. Italian horses are heavily influenced by US breeding, like NZ. Another interesting fact is that, despite being represented in decent numbers in Italy, Muscles Yankee has only broken into their top 20 once, and that was three years ago. He is ranked 27th this year. They don't go for early speed horses over there, and Muscles Yankees have not gone on to be good earning aged horses. We don't go for early speed trotting here either. Love You is doing okay, but he is not a world beater. He is certainly no Varenne, Lemon Dra or Viking Kronos.
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Post by triplev123 on Oct 21, 2010 15:39:27 GMT 12
If you knew the answer to your question, at least as you see it, then why did you ask it? By the way, we are in New Zealand an Australia, not Italy. Italian siring stats are irrelevant. If Love You ultimately makes even half of the impression that Muscles Yankee has done here in the Southern Hemisphere I will be staggered to say the least.
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Post by rarebit on Oct 21, 2010 15:48:37 GMT 12
I think Italy is a very good analogy, for the reasons given, their breeding is similar to ours and they race over similar distances - not just the mile and not just early speed. I think Love You could be a relevation, but he will not be the only one, if we start to open our eyes to the possibilities.
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Post by triplev123 on Oct 21, 2010 16:45:29 GMT 12
I hope he is too because there are a lot of people who have tossed in a lot of $$$ in the hope of it happening. That being said, it is not as though French Trotting Bloodlines have never before been tried in the Southern Hemisphere is it? To date and to my knowledge it has been nothing short of an unmittigated disaster. Can you name just one French Blood Trotting Sire that has managed to do anything that's even approaching the siring efforts of Muscles Yankee thus far? Trying the same thing over and over and over again, each time expecting a different outcome than before, seems more than a bit crazy to me.
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Post by rarebit on Oct 21, 2010 17:04:17 GMT 12
Ah but it is not the same. The French trotting lines of Love You are mostly American, as opposed to the pure French lines of the others which were Beau Nonantais, Gekoj and Iggasou (who was the dam sire of one of our greats in Take A Moment). And the Italians and Swedes, who are also breeding some very fast trotters, are 90 per cent American, especially on the maternal lines. Varenne has only a faint touch of French, but with older American lines. That is not to say that the French lines don't make a difference, Lemon Dra and Revenue both are strongly French. And one of Lemon Dra's best sons is making a really big impact Uennomettro, I think his name is spelt. As I said, there are some real possibilities. The Italians have been importing the best American blood into their breed for a long time, and still do today, and Varenne is their piece de resistance, and was a super racehorse and just as good a sire.
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Post by triplev123 on Oct 21, 2010 17:50:16 GMT 12
You're moving the goal posts about a bit. Moving targets are hard to hit. :-P The facts are that French Trotting Blood, partial or otherwise, has been a complete washout in this part of the world. What happened/happens/is happening anywhere else right now is just not relevant. In the Southern Hemisphere, head to head, if Love You gets even remotely close to that which Muscles Yankee has already achieved and will continue to achieve I'd be absolutely astounded. There's a very obvious reason why the early going, US juvenile speed sires in the Trotting ranks, have done so well in NZ & AUS. Stamina is not what our Trotting mares need down here. They need high speed and a slick gait in their consorts. That is why a $pricey$ but with it a wicked fast, great gaited colt like Muscle Hill would sweep all before him in this part of the world. On the other hand, taking a retrograde step by injecting of doses of exactly that which Southern Hemisphere Trotting breeders have so often been at pains to breed away from just doesn't make any sense to me.
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Post by rarebit on Oct 21, 2010 18:01:47 GMT 12
I think you'll find there is plenty of speed in the best Europeans. Varenne was pretty slippery. The problems we have had is the trotting was very much an afterthought for many years. We are now getting some nice sires from a range of places, and not claimers and rejects like the past. The Italians have access to the best of both worlds, so should we. Then we have real choice.
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Post by triplev123 on Oct 21, 2010 18:22:56 GMT 12
No doubt, but I'm taking about JUVENILE speed, zippy, point to point, slick gaited high speed 2yos & 3yos. Not older Trotters who eventually go down the road in fast time at 6-7-8-9yrs of age. Make no mistake, we're still getting the rubbish too, but on the upside we've also got access to the likes of Majestic Son, Crazed, Muscles Yankee, Muscle Hill, now the locally bred son of Muscles Yankee in Skyvalley and Alabar recently announced frozen from Federal Flex who was no slouch by any means. No doubt I've missed just as many as I've named. If you really wante to make an impact on the European scene with a Southern Hemisphere bred Trotter, get yourself some French blood mares and line them up at the door of Muscle Hill. Speed over Stamina mate. Easily the oldest recipe in the book. In terms of what you're apparently looking for I can't see how you could possibly miss. Good luck. ;-)
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Post by rarebit on Oct 24, 2010 10:31:15 GMT 12
I've just been looking at some of the stallion lineups in some of the best studs in Italy (they are online), and they really are impressive. The Italians have access to the best blood in America, almost without exception. In their two year old and three year old stats this year they are all there, Conway Hall, Cantab Hall, Enjoy Lavec, Credit Winner, Self Possesed, Windsong's Legacy all in reasonable numbers. Muscles Yankee is not there, although he is the year before. That does not matter, the point is, is that they have access to the best in the world, and yet their 2 and 3 year-old sire stats are dominated by horses like Varenne, Uronometro, Toss Out, Super Gill, Pine Chip, Ganymede and one I'd never heard of but is going great guns, a certain Zinzan Brooke Tur. The point I am making, I guess, is given that they have access to the best in the world, and the Italians are certainly not short of a bob or two, why do they then use horses which in Australia are seen as inferior.
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