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Post by bustoharland on Dec 10, 2010 16:35:24 GMT 12
value is all relative - if i owned bronski gorgeous i wouldnt flinch paying 20k for rock n roll or western ideal because the foal - if healthy - could be worth 60k the moment it hits the ground
but paying 3k to serve a mare that was no good and its mother no good and has thrown nothing would be painful
also with muscles yankee is the potential value from stud duties, skyvalley was gone before he could become dominant and hes still going to get decent books of mares and keep earning - i'd imagine miami h would be worth a stack as a stallion if he comes back
no matter how good some horses are if they aren't from a 'hot' sire line breeders won't touch them
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Post by flashingred on Dec 10, 2010 17:23:40 GMT 12
Once again, I think this whole argument boils down to it depends on whether one breeds to sell or race.
I don't think statistics matter as much if you are breedings to sell, because people buy off hype rather than doing a lot of research for the most part (I have found). That normally goes hand in hand with the expensive sires.
If breeding to keep, a value stallion with comparable statistics may be a better choice, especially for the pocket!
If I ever personally were to breed horses to sell, I would go to the hype sires, progeny that sell well etc. If I were to breed to keep, statistics would be vital, because if you are planning on keeping, then you want to make sure it is a good one!!
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Post by rarebit on Dec 19, 2010 7:31:18 GMT 12
They have to be very good horses to make the Australian Trotting Grand Prix. Sundon's Gift is a dead set champion. The Europeans would have been proud of a nine year old dealing to the pretenders.
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 19, 2010 14:29:39 GMT 12
Now you're just being truculent Rarebit. :-P
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Post by flashingred on Dec 19, 2010 16:51:24 GMT 12
Down Under Muscles is the closest thing to a slick gaited American-style trotter as I have seen downunder.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 19, 2010 19:31:46 GMT 12
Still couldn't beat a nine-year-old real champ. Sundon's absolutely huge for NZ trotting, the best we've had since Game Pride. He's really lifted the bar for Downunder trotters, and there are a lot of Sundon mares out there crying out for lines that suit them, to take them to another level. Muscles Yankee is not the one. Down under Muscles and Lord of The Gym are out of pacing bred mares, and Skyvalley, Sno's Big Boy and I Can Doosit are out of Chiola Hanover mares. Miami H is the only one out of a Sundon, and his dam is also a Chiola Hanover. A lot of the good Sundons out of Speedy Crown lines. Dream Vacation's top ones were all out of Speedy Crown mares or Sundons. I am really sorry he is not around.
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Post by flashingred on Dec 19, 2010 22:32:52 GMT 12
To be fair....
(a) No-one has said that Down Under Muscles is a champion. (b) He still has a lot to learn. (c) If you have watched any amount of his races, you would know that he was below par last night to what he has been doing.
Sundon's Gift was never a "made" horse. Before he went to Sweden, he made a lot of mistakes. While not making mistakes per se, Down Under Muscles still has a lot to learn. He cannot come out of a gate yet and he also hangs dreadfully, especially the first half of a race. He does not have that versatility that comes with experience. Sundon's Gift has been around long enough to be almost as foolproof as a trotter can be.
I think your a little harsh calling a horse like Down Under Muscles a "pretender", for the above reasons. Give him a little time. You gave it to Sundon's Gift.
I'm not turning this into a breeding debate, because (a) I don't know enough about the breeding of trotters; and (b) This isn't about breeding at all, I am going on purely on peformance. I couldn't care less if they were sired by the milkman's cart horse.
I was merely commenting that a horse like Down Under Muscles is evidence of the trotting breed begining to become more refined down here. Because let's face it, watching our trotters compared to those in North America or Europe is like watching a bunch of cart horses trot. Not many have the refinement that Down Under Muscles shows. All those European and North American Champions are beautiful trotters, not ill gaited things like we have for the most part here.
As you can see, this is not a breeding debate. Down Under Muscles is an example of the breed moving forward.
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Post by bustoharland on Dec 19, 2010 22:52:43 GMT 12
just watch let me thru smack them when he comes back, an outstanding muscles yankee son
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 21, 2010 11:19:10 GMT 12
Hey Rarebit, for starters... perhaps you should do your homework on the maternal family of Lord Of The Gym? That branch of that damline has been virtually ALL TROT since at least as far back as the early 1970's. His dam, Chancery Lane, was a very smart Trotter and the only winner of her dam. His 2nd dam, Streets Of London, was a Pacer but she would have Trotted if she were allowed. His 3rd dam produced 11 foals, 7 raced, ALL were Trotters. Of those 11 foals, 7 were also fillies and those fillies have produced Trotters virtually across the board, as have the respective daughters of those 7 fillies.
Not exactly a big surprise that Muscles Yankee left a good Trotter from a maternal line such as this.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 21, 2010 15:08:34 GMT 12
Hey Jaimie. Nothing wrong with my research. I don't care if the mare and all her descendants trotted. She is pacing bred. Nobody would have gone to her sire Torado Hanover trying to breed a trotter. Her dam, second dam and third dam are also by pacing-bred sires, and likewise no one would have gone to them to breed a trotter. They are throwbacks. The fact that so many of her descendants trotted is neither here nor there, there was a lot of dual gaitedness back then, and there were few good pure trotting bred stallions Downunder. We are not going to advance the trotting bloodlines of NZ or Australia by continuing to throw horses that could trot a bit, at trotting stallions. You will get some good trotters, but more often than not you get potters. Even today we can still get throwbacks or the odd trotter that has pacing bloodlines maternally (Majestic Son comes to mind) but these days 99% of the good ones go back almost in a straight line to trotting blood. Which is probably why their gait has improved so dramatically in the US and Europe. You more regularly get pacing bred freaks like Lyell Creek and Scotch Tar down here, but you know and I know that the Yanks and the Europeans won't go near bloodlines that have any pacing in them at all. Can you name a major American or European race that has been won by a horse sired by a Pacing bred horse. There will be some out of pacing bred mares (Majestic Son again) but if a trotting mare has got Hal Dale or Tar Heel in the maternal bloodlines, you know, and I know, that they will not sell as a broodmare prospect anywhere but Downunder. That is why I would never breed to Majestic Son, even though he gets his pacing bloodlines from his third dam. But I would most certainly would have no hesitation breeding to Muscles Yankee if I had the right trotting-BRED mare (not a Sundon) and a bit more spare cash than I do now.
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 21, 2010 18:57:12 GMT 12
G'day Rarebit,
Mate, to my way of thinking there is HUGE difference between an immediate & extended maternal family from which the occasional pacing bred Trotter appears....and that which you find with Lord Of The Gym. In his case you have immediate and extended maternal family that has, quite clearly & for successive generations, produced almost exclusively Trotting performers and this it has done most notably of all despite it being bred to both Pacing and Trotting bred sires. This family traces back to, surprise surprise, Miss Carlotta, a US bred daughter of Belwin from the Peter The Great mare Carlotta The Great. How much more Trotting bred in origin do you want one wonders ?
Perhaps I view it all too simplistically, as in Lord Of The Gym has been able to do exactly what his breeder, Graeme Searle, bred him to do. He has turned out to be an outstanding Trotter.
Further to this, I'd also have thought that a maternal family such as his would instead be one that's widely celebrated by Trotting enthusiasts such as yourself.... by way of its incredible ability to stay on the Trotting gait despite being bred to Pacing blood?...this as opposed to your above derision of said family.
Forgive me for being such a simpleton as to rate form and function above pedigree snobbery for little more than the apparent sake thereof.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 21, 2010 21:09:08 GMT 12
Mate I'm not going to argue on one horse which is the exception to the rule. She may go back to a trotting mare from the USA, and he did great getting a good one. And he has a mare who will probably leave a lot of good ones. Pedigree snobbery. What sort of nonsense is that. It's just basic breeding 101. I guess all the top farms will start going to Bettors Delight - sorry it's Rock N Roll Heaven this year - with their top trotting mares to get an even faster trotter. I think I'll email Hanover Shoe right now, they've been doing it wrong all along.
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Post by breakthebank on Dec 21, 2010 22:23:10 GMT 12
IS this the Aus/NZ battle over trotting horses ? Lets face it, both countries have pretty short bred trotting lines - do I think that most of the top Aus trotters are NZ bred ? in which case the genetic pool in Aus is much shorter than NZ. We have a genetic pool of Globe Derby, Light Brigade, U Scott and various Axworthys that were known dual gaited producers. Even Roy McKenzie bred some of his better trotting mares to Meadow Roydon to get more speed, probably because to buy a good trotting stallion was too expensive at the time. What everybody forgets is that trotting and pacing are completely different and the requirements of the horses are different. Pacers are short and narrow, and if you have a problem with the gait you just tighten up the strings around their legs. No such choice with trotters as the natural ability to trot must be bred into them. Sure the odd pacing family will produce trotter, and this may be a throwback, but it is a very low percentage breeding option. Just because the mare puts its tail up and trots around the paddock, doesn't mean it will produce a trotter. Likewise the are many examples of pacing bred families that produce the odd trotter - in this part of the world it is not unexpected. But would you go out deliberately to breed a trotter from a pacing family ?? If you can afford to have paddocks full of mongrel bred horses that can't trot and can't pace fast enough either then go for it. If you look through the families of these horses, you will find a few of them trotted well, but the rest did nothing - say 50:50 if you are generous. If you breed a trotting stallion to a pacing bred mare (given that there is some trotting in the maternal family) then maybe you will get the odd good one, but don't hold your breath. I have a full sister to one of the fastest trotters to leave NZ - trotting sireline and pacing maternal. The thing can trot like the wind and doesn't pace at all - beautiful length but no width and won't trot around corners. Last time I looked, most of the tracks in NZ and Aus had corners on them. So my point after all this is - if you have a trotting mare from a pacing bloodline that has the fundamental conformation to be a trotter, then carry on - but be prepared for the thing to throw something that is not correctly conformed for a trotter - and don't expect it to pace fast enough either. We are really talking about 2 different breeds and in NZ and Aus we lack the maternal depth at this time to have a top end trotting breed that can take on the rest of the world.
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Post by norm1456 on Dec 22, 2010 5:47:01 GMT 12
I am not up to scratch with breeding but my mates dad has purchased Daniela H who has never race and has been served by Skyvalley, any comments on that
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Post by breakthebank on Dec 22, 2010 8:37:22 GMT 12
I am not up to scratch with breeding but my mates dad has purchased Daniela H who has never race and has been served by Skyvalley, any comments on that Only 1 other stallion I can find with Axworthy over Stars Pride maternal and should go with double Speedster line mare like Daniela H. Interesting stallion choice.
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