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Post by bustoharland on Dec 9, 2010 20:10:07 GMT 12
if i could win a breeders crown and never a race after it, sign me up
skyvalley was going to be the best trotter in the southern hemisphere, he had sundons gift measure imo and sundons gift toyed with your open class horses
i know from personal experience that sundons are mad so i wouldnt breed one
from 30 live foals in AUS lord of the gym 230k skyvalley 320k let me thru 200k miami h 150k magic interest 130k down under muscles 171k
NZ - your stats are harder to work out ican dosit 210k sno's big boy 165k cyclone jake 120k
if i had a good trotting mare she'd be going straight to him
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Post by rarebit on Dec 9, 2010 20:40:59 GMT 12
He is up against nothing in terms of stallions in your part of the world. He's up against reject pacers for Christ's sake. Any donkey can do that. If you have $25,000 to waste go ahead. His best ones here are out of champion mares, he hasn't produced anything to write home about in his first three crops. his first big champion was out of one of our best mares, and his second champion was also out of a champion mare. Please. My beef is not that he isn't a huge improvement in what we have been offered, it's his price. You are an ejit if you think he is worth that.
Lord of the Gym won 14 as a 3 and 4YO has won THREE races since. Skyvalley was a NZ horse and out of a champion mare (no great kudos there) Let Me Thru hasn't raced for long in open company, and if he goes through to five years old, he'll be a first (and isn't he out of a NZ mare). Miami H is out of a champion mare, again no great kudos. Magic Interest is already showing the tendancy. A good youngster, has only won ONCE in his last twelve starts as a four year old. You are already clutching at straws. And Down Under Muscles again, ejit, is out of a CHAMPION mare. Feck in hell her first three foals went 1.56, 1.55 and 1.52, with no help from your $25,000 sire. So your formula is to find a champion mare and sling $25,000 at it, to see it race well as a two and three year old, and hopefully win a few at four. So let's get this straight. The best THREE Muscles Yankees are from CHAMPION MARES. Wow. That's a great breeding strategy. Well good luck on that Sunshine.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 9, 2010 20:54:49 GMT 12
PS You can't claim Skyvalley and Miami H in your Australian foals. I'm pretty sure they were bred here.
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Post by bustoharland on Dec 9, 2010 21:04:47 GMT 12
let me thru has had 18 starts, 11 wins and 220k - if i owned him i'd love him to death even if he never made the races again, but don't choke on your cereal when he smacks the FFA horses this season
i dont care how many races they win in open class, once they are in FFA ranks how many actually win races? very few, so i'd be pretty stoked to have a horse thats won 100k from 2 seasons of training bills..an average horse here will cost 14k to train per year, it would be more in nz with any top trainer, so those 2 seasons of being a good young horse rather then being at home going rough and galloping waiting for its 5 yr old season look pretty expensive to me - horses all cost the same to feed, train, pay up etc, so i'd rather spend a bit more to give myself of getting a good horse then cheap skate it at breeding and cop it through the nose for 4 long years of no return on investment
whats the saying about champion mares, they dont throw good horses..hes 25k of course hes only going to get good mares... have fun with your sundons, hope you've got an extra few grand to replace the cart it smashes up when you break it in
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Post by bustoharland on Dec 9, 2010 21:11:27 GMT 12
i just re-read you last comment..hes produced nothing of note in his first 3 crops... from 26 foals he threw LMT, DUM and MI a combined half a million in prizemoney... if you can't see that then you have no idea
lord of the gym won 45k last season, 3 in metro grade.... next time you have a battler like him you let me know and ill come and pick him up, you just can't appreciate good horses that go against your thoughts
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Post by rarebit on Dec 9, 2010 21:19:03 GMT 12
Mate, in NZ the "top" trainers aren't necessarily the top trotting trainers, we have the likes of R Brosnan, M Wallis, M Tapper, P Nairn, P Williamson, M Alfeld, G O'Reilly, P Iggo, S McCaffrey in the top trotting trainers, and none would be close to being in the top pacing trainers in NZ. You are so far away from it as far as trotting goes, I wonder why you even bother. They ain't going to bother with Muscles Yankee when they have Sundons, Monarchys, Armbro Invasions and Dream Vacation, all for under 5 grand and all throwing good trotters from useful mares, not necessarily champions. And don't go making stupid comments about Let Me Thru. If he goes through to the top, he'll be the first Muscles Yankee. Let's be honest, how many trotters have you actually bred, and how many good ones have you had. I'm picking you've never bred to Muscles Yankee, and I'm picking you have no intention of.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 9, 2010 21:23:55 GMT 12
My point is still the same. $25,000 a pop, the only good ones he has left have been from champion mares. He's not even batting close with ordinary mares.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 9, 2010 21:26:16 GMT 12
Christian Cullen made his name on ordinary mares. That's a champion sire.
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Post by waxmanfan on Dec 10, 2010 5:46:42 GMT 12
Having read with some dismay that Miami H is now out for the year, which is Muscles Yankee's top young trotter here (I feel sorry for his owner who is a nice bloke). I am just wondering what has happened to all those Muscles Yankees who should be running around in open class now - there are enough of them. For the record he has 64 progeny running around who between 3 and 6YOs, and they have returned the very good figures of 35 winners for more than a million dollars, with four over $100,000 and 6 over $50,000. But where are they? However a horse that is a fifth of the price, Dream Vacation has 52 progeny over between 3 and 7YOs who with 26 racewinners of about $50,000 more than Muscles Yankee. Dream Vacation has 3 winners over $100,000 including one winning well in the States, plus 8 over $50,000 (and another just over a grand under it). And there are some nice young ones coming through the ranks like McBlizzard and Jarvosaks who quinellaed at Addington a week or so back, and another couple in the top ranks in Auckland. But where are all the Muscles Yankees at $25,000 a pop. Sky Valley out young, Miami H out young. Do I see a pattern here. And they let Dream Vacation go. You Aussies should snap him up while you got the chance, especially if you have a Sundon mare. He is only $5000 and he is a steal. And the rising star in the trotters is not only from Dream Vacation mare, he is doubled back into the same maternal family and is by a lovely outcross in Windsong's Legacy = Chapter Seven. The general consensus is that chapter seven is a bit weak on the dam's side but has thrown to windsong's legacy. i'm glad you think he's a rising star as he didn't beat any of the top 2yo trotters this year.
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 10, 2010 8:29:06 GMT 12
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Post by rarebit on Dec 10, 2010 9:36:44 GMT 12
Mate. He's a really super sire of two and three year olds. No question. Top notch. He has a couple of really nice horses in I Can Doosit and Sno's Big Boy here in NZ. But for what is about twice the price of his US service fee and ten times the price of Monarchy, Armbro Invasion and seven times the price of Sundon, I just don't see that, at $25,000, he is 10 times the sire that the others are. Can't see it. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 10, 2010 10:45:14 GMT 12
Rarebit, the thing you're missing is that comparing sires and judging their respective abilities solely by way of using multiples of /divisions of their respective service fees is both unrealistic & fraught with danger. For example; We bred a mare to Christian Cullen when he was available here in Oz via Alabar for $4,400 including GST & at the time people were telling us we were mad and that he was overpriced. He did not subsequently become approximately 5.5x the sire he was initially simply by way of his fee skyrocketing to $25,000.
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Post by rarebit on Dec 10, 2010 11:07:31 GMT 12
Point taken on price, but my main concern is the numbers, or lack of them, getting through to open class. One per crop, which is his current rate, is hardly good enough for a horse of his class, which parallels what happened in Italy. And for our style of trotting, that is concerning.
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Post by flashingred on Dec 10, 2010 12:29:33 GMT 12
I'm on the fence but I will say one thing:
I agree with rarebit on stud feeds. There may not be TOO much difference in SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE progeny, but when you look at stud fees, ranging from 5k - 25k - it really must be taken into account.
I would breed to a stallion that isn't the best if he had comparable statistics and was 5x less...
We carry on like we all have limited funds - but we don't. Nothing wrong with trying to get value.
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Post by triplev123 on Dec 10, 2010 15:24:10 GMT 12
That's exactly how popular myths about various stallions grow wings and become accepted fact Rarebit... and it's one that's remarkably similar to the 'where are the Open/Cups/ID Class horses' arguement that was previously and demononstrably erroneously aimed at Bettor's Delight. Fascinating that both were/are being judged on their efforts from very small crops produced by frozen semen. In Australia, including current 3yos, Muscles Yankee has produced just 27 live foals over 4 seasons. 2004-14, 2005-10, 2006-2, 2007-1. From those 27 live foals 3yrs and older he produced 19 starters for 12 winners of $1,005,575 at an average of $52,899 including the following... LORD OF THE GYM 07-Dec-2004 AU Gelding CHANCERY LANE TORADO HANOVER USA $228,955 TR2:01.1MS 46 17 LET ME THRU 24-Dec-2005 AU Gelding INVASIONS PRIDE NZ ARMBRO INVASION USA $201,665 TR2:00.0MS 18 11 DOWN UNDER MUSCLES 06-Nov-2005 AU Colt FIONAS FLAIR ENTREPRENEUR USA $171,925 TR2:01.1MS 28 16 MAGIC INTEREST 16-Dec-2005 AU Colt LATE WITHDRAWAL MAGNUS APOLLO USA $141,188 TR2:04.7MS 36 7 GLUTEUS MAXIMUS 21-Nov-2004 AU Filly THUNDER THIGHS NZ CHIOLA HANOVER USA $90,355 TR1:59.6MS 37 13 STAR SPANGLED RAMA 05-Oct-2004 AU Filly TAMMY RAMA RED COACH GLORY USA $35,725 TR2:04.6MS 37 7 IMAMUSCLESYANKEE 03-Nov-2004 AU Gelding FIONAS FLAIR ENTREPRENEUR USA $30,011 TR2:04.3MS 44 7 DOVER DOWNS 09-Nov-2004 AU Gelding EXOTIC CHARM NZ ROYDON BOY USA $27,050 TR2:04.8MS 27 5 YANKEE PRINCESS 09-Dec-2004 AU Filly MAORI PRINCESS ENTREPRENEUR USA $24,588 TR2:04.8 36 5 ALDEBARAN ILLUSION 06-Oct-2005 AU Gelding SHEEZA DREAM NZ SUNDON USA $18,675 TR2:02.9MS 18 4 JUSTANOTHERMAORI 27-Jan-2005 AU Colt SUMTHINGABOUTMAORI PINE CHIP (US) $16,350 TR2:06.8 9 4 DIAMOND DASH 24-Oct-2004 AU Filly ADELLAS DASH NZ SUNDON USA $7,869 TR2:06.8MS 6 2 That's a very good effort whatever way you may care to look at it. Incidentally, not sure what to make of the comment... 'He's not even batting close with ordinary mares '....because it leaves me wondering just how many ordinary mares any Standarbred sire is going to get in response to a $25,000 price tag ?? The great Somebeachsomewhere has served nothing short of stellar books at Hanover since his retirement....a virtual who's who of the great race filly/race mare/producing mare ranks. When he duly becomes a leading sire in the coming years would you similarly write off that success by holding the quality of mares he served against him? Or does a sire instead have to serve books made up of Steptoe's Cart Horse type mares and then somehow manage to produce super stars from them in order to be acknowledged as the genuine article? I'm all for jamming them under the microscope and giving them the once over from all angles and then some but you've put me to shame. Flashing, you hit squarely on the bit that I deleted from that post before I sent it. Value. I do not disagree with the premise that Sundon etc. are seen as 'value' in comparison to Muscles Yankee. The line of thinking I can't comprehend is the... 'such and such a sire is not 2x-5x-10x- better than another sire so his fee should not be x number of times higher'...routine. Further to that, for anyone to compare any horse that has just 91 live foals total currently 3yrs & over in NZ & AUS combined (Muscles Yankee)....to a sire that has thus far produced 1744 foals currently 3yrs & over.... with 1587 of those in NZ (Sundon).....and then go on to extrapolate from that a perceived lack of Open/Cups/ID Class representation on behalf of Muscles Yankee...this despite the fact he has just a little over 5% of the respresentation of Sundon...is crazy stuff.
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